I dream of one day meeting a feminist who wants to win. I’m an anarchist. Abolishing the patriarchy is part of abolishing the state. You can think of anarchism as the idea that domination is bad, or the idea that social relations should be consensual. Therefore, in principle, I have common cause with feminists. In practice, they largely spend their time fucking everything up with their hypocrisy.
And then I came across this thread. The sadness of none of the men respecting you and so forth. My original post is gone because I’m banned, but I said something to the effect that she should please stick to her principles and how much I’d appreciate it if women actually demanded men respect them before having sex with them. It would make things so much easier. Don’t be this.
Someone was offended on the grounds that I was a man complaining that I couldn’t get laid. Well, yeah, but the thread was about how the original poster was having a problem that’s actually parallel: how to find relationships when almost nobody agrees with you about what sex should be all about. I offered myself as an existence proof that compromises aren’t necessary.
It rubbed me the wrong way to see it dismissed as “can’t get a date.” An argument ensued. This was the post that got me banned (preserved because it’s quoted by a reply predating the ban):
You do realize that everyone has gaps in their self-awareness and most people have harmful socialization they need to unlearn, right? And loneliness is a terribly painful problem that affects humans universally, yes? Therefore, the temptation is great to make compromises. From the Feminist Current article I linked:
“I want to be loved like everyone else; but loved as myself. I feel like giving up because it’s just too fucking hard and it hurts too much, but I never really do. Loving men can be painful and embarrassing and irrational and traumatic. But it can also feel like magic. A particular kind of magic that feels a lot like nausea, sure, but magic nonetheless. “
What’s missing from these kinds of Sisterhood Celebrations is usually an appreciation of how pernicious it is the way that stuff comes across TO MEN. It’s not realistic to expect men to EVER change as long as they’re sexually rewarded or at least given a pass for the wrong things, ESPECIALLY by people who make a big deal of their feminism. If even the radical feminists put up with it, women aren’t serious and don’t mean it, and it’s incredibly self-defeating to “ally” ourselves with you. It’s a real blind spot.
If you aren’t prepared to die alone before excusing certain things, you are like abolitionists nobody took seriously because they all wore cotton.
So yes, I feel that coming here to say that was theoretically justified. Your task would certainly be easier if men who weren’t particularly at the top of the patriarchy could be convinced that your views were more uplifting to the human spirit than the status quo. If you belittle the same loneliness this thread is about when it happens in less-dominant men, they will run to the MRAs and incels who welcome them and promise the potential of a sex life.
How does yelling at me actually further your political goals? It’s almost like you’ve reduced me to a hate object…
All of that is of course undeniably true. It’s undeniably a problem if you share the positive goal of sex-negative feminism, namely better relations between men and women. The person I was arguing with doesn’t appear to share that goal:
Sidebar: “Gender Critical is a radical feminist subreddit to discuss gender from a critical perspective. We are a woman-centered community.” I’m not interested in recruiting men. I’m especially uninterested in men who think their loneliness is comparable to women who can’t find a partner who doesn’t hurt them, coerce them into sex, use them as a free maid, and/or treat them as subhuman. If you think women repeatedly turning you down is tantamount to treating you as subhuman, you’re already an incel. If you think being “un-Chadly” somehow means you don’t belong to the privileged male class within a patriarchy, you’re an idiot. If you claim that radical feminist, women-focused threads cause misogynistic movements like MRA, you’re a troll.
If she’s not interested in recruiting men, she certainly doesn’t have an actual plan for ending the patriarchy, or any idea what the end goal is.
She’s basically making all comparisons a thoughtcrime, when in fact such comparisons facilitate empathy. What it’s like for you might be like this thing I also experienced…
I’m not trying to win the Oppression Olympics, but yeah, I would like to find a partner who doesn’t hurt me, use me, and treat me as subhuman (or at least worse than their pets). Women are fully capable of inflicting harm on others. Is it worse to be black and autistic than it is to be her? She’s not addressing my argument, which is about social dynamics, not quantitative comparison.
I didn’t actually say being turned down is tantamount to being treated as subhuman. I did say it’s lonely, and in particular it’s crazy-making to be turned down for not being “dominant.” Yes, it’s personally frustrating to me. The fact that that’s the reality I encounter IRL also says something about the importance of “inner work” as a component of activism. Andrea Dworkin: “We need to be able to withstand sadness and we need to be able to withstand grief.”
I don’t actually think being “un-chadly” makes me not part of the privileged male class. I’m just capable of making distinctions like “more dominant” and “less dominant.” Being black and autistic emasculates you, and I’m actually less the problem than some people. Recruiting lower-status males is actually FUNDAMENTAL to egalitarianism because egalitarian societies aren’t based on love and friendliness. They’re reverse dominance hierarchies.
I don’t think this particular thread is responsible for MRAs. Men observing that women don’t believe what they say about feminism ABSOLUTELY causes MRAs. It’s, like, the leading cliche.
Furthermore, rejection by women can impact male attitudes towards women, often in the direction of misogyny. Urbaniak and Killman (2003) found many websites of men complaining that “nice guys finish last.” It’s easy to find these websites on the internet. For example, on the website “The NiceGuy’s Women / Ameriskanks (mostly) Suck Web Page,” a man who calls himself NiceGuy describes how he once listened to what women told him they wanted in men, and only met with rejection when he tried to behave in the way he thought they wanted (NiceGuy, 2005). He reports that, “I once RESPECTED American women very much. I want to treat women in general as equal partners, and I think women are just great.” Yet he came to conclude that romantically, he was “invisible” because he was “nice,” and asks, “Why the hell should any guy like me treat any woman decently—ever? You always end-up feeling cheated in the end and passed-over as a love interest!” He says that “nice guys” are viewed as “just friends” by women, or as “wimps” (i.e. inadequately masculine). He also views his resentment of women as following from his negative experiences with them: “Misogynists aren’t born—they’re made. Be informed: as far as you American chicks are concerned, you have killed-off the nice guy inside me.” NiceGuy’s rant demonstrates the consequences that can occur when men feel they have been deceived about what women are attracted to: they can feel lied to and used by women, which meshes with misogynistic stereotypes about female deceptiveness and manipulativeness.
While /r/GenderCritical is a “women’s space,” it’s certainly the case that the IRL behavior associated with creating such a thread has been observed and interpreted by men. “I’m so feminist but I can’t seem to stop having sex with guys who do X, Y, Z nonfeminist things.” The bottom line is that she’s having sex with them in flagrant violation of her stated belief system. She has feels about it internally, but it’s an empirical demonstration that the need to alleviate loneliness, the conditioning that hasn’t been unlearned, the secret desire for someone else to take care of everything, etc. all take precedence and make feminism negotiable and unnecessary to Getting The Girl.
I’m not even trying to say that Nice Guys are. However, given that their self-image depends on being nice, they’re presumably capable of being taught what that actually means. It’s something to work with. It’s more openness to the cause than a bro would have.
Apparently that analysis makes me a troll. Rather than answering the question of how hating me furthers her goals, I’m banned. This is a form of social retardation.
I don’t understand what this person is even trying to accomplish.
Men are supposed to talk to other men to de-patriarchy them. That’s all well and good, but I’d like women’s help in being able to say it isn’t true that men expecting to be rewarded for supporting women are chumps. 50 Shades is happening right now, too. The radfems aren’t giving me much to work with, with that attitude. This person is just confirming the stereotypes that feminists are just bitter man-haters who need to get laid or something.